Hey...I paid for this wall in my house....why the hell should I pay for some dick-head called Picasso to do some finger painting to hang on it?

The sooner people realise that a skin is creative art....a valued commodity....the better.

Commercialism in skinning is/will be the same as any other aspect thereof.....if its good, and worth the premium it will attract the purchaser.....if it's junk it will end up in the discount bin soon enough.

No-one EVER has decreed that skinning as an entity MUST be exempt from supply and demand [as everything else in this world is subject to].

If a skinner asks a million bucks for his beatnik skin....well and good.

If no-one forks over the moolah, so be it.

It is the height of effrontery to assert that a skinner cannot require a fee.....that all skins must be 'free'.

It's an insult to demean their efforts in such a fashion.

If I spend 50 hours on a winamp skin well bugger you, I want 10 bucks an hour minimum for my efforts.

I'm not a charity...and neither is any other skinner.

If/when I freely release a skin...feel gratitude.

If/when I charge for one...show appreciation.

I'm just flinging in a quick remark here:
No matter how many skins I may create (from scratch) in my time I could never get myself to charge money from people so they can use it.

I make skins for the fun of it, no for "fame and/or fortune".

Knowingly, alot/some are making a living out of skinning, I quite franktly doesnt see anything wrong in that!!
Some make applications - you wont get those for free (most of'em at least)
Some make skins.....

If some cant live with that, I can only say: get your heads the he** out of your arses and smell the beeswax - thats how the real world works!!

 

and now back to your regular scheduled flamewar

Here's my take on premium skins and whatnot. Personally I think all skins should be free, people have to pay for the software to use the skins so why ask them to spend more.

Skinning IS free...

Get a grip, you are FREE to skin all you like.

At no point did anyone state that you would get every Skin after purchasing a Stardock app for FREE because of that purchase.

It is a personal choice of the person who is doing the actual work putting a Skin, Theme, Wall, Cursor Set, Dock, Icons (skinning) together if their time and skill is worth money to them or not.

Conversely, the person who purchases a Stardock product has the choice to Skin to their hearts desire for FREE...

Graphic Art is a profession, layout and Design is a profession. Skinning can be a hobby or profession, or even a combination of the two.

Anyone who feels it should all be free needs to remember that once a hobby starts to FEEL like work there is better than a 99% chance that it very well is.

I've read the whole thread and It seems people are focusing on one app. Windowblinds. The poll talks about premium (suites). For a good example of a suite, go to Pixtudio.com.(I'm just using them as an example). They will show what a suite is. I don't think they have ever sold just a windowblind by itself.

Just my thoughts, but I don't think a person will be promoted to master, just because they have done a few good windowblinds.(I could be wrong).
I think the people should prove that they can skin many of the apps. such as, sysmetrix, objectbar, winamp, icons, cursorxp, etc.

Jafo, brought up a good point (spending 50 hours on a skin and getting $10 an hour. Just think about how much you spend on a full suite, 8 to 10 bucks, for a complete package.
Just something to think about.

If it's restricted to master, there may be a slew of people releasing half-assed works in order to raise level.

A slew of half finished skins will never earn anyone the Master title.

MindlessPuppet, as someone who stated on the GUI Olympics boards that you just couldn't manage to finish your own WB entry in time, I am suprised that you now find it so simplistic and, well, mindless.

Here's my take on it...

Say I make a number of free skins that lots of people enjoy. Some of those people like my work in general, look forward to each new release, and make use of the majority of them. Now, lets say I decide to make a suite of skins and charge a small fee for it. This fee not only gets you that suite, but it helps compensate me for all the time I've put into making all the other skins I gave away. It encourages me to make more skins and give them away. It also allows me to pay for my website each month and keep it online, which is part of what makes this fun for me.

When I hear people say, "I really like all the free skins you devote your time and energy into creating for me, but I wouldn't be willing to pay for any. I think you should just keep doing it for free out of the goodness of your heart," let me tell you, there is a limit to the goodness in everyone's heart. There is a difference between being charitable and being taken advantage of.

This is a two way street. I can understand that some people can't afford to part with $10. There are times when I can't afford it either. It's ok if you don't buy any of my skins, but at least recognize that my time and effort are worth something. If you're unwilling to even support the concept that it's worth something, then I'm unwilling to give it to you. How's does that sound? Would you prefer that all the skinners capable of premium quality work just stopped giving it away? By saying that skins should always be free, you're saying that our time and effort isn't worth anything.

Well, all of the companies that have hired us to create custom skins believe it is worth something. Maybe we should just stick to skinning for them. Better yet, maybe I should only release skins to people that have supported me. I could email them all and say, "Here's a new skin, just for you guys. I really appreciate your support." As for everyone else, you have the same software at your disposal that I do. Go ahead and make your own skins.

I won't do that, of course. Stardock is one of my supporters, and without them, this wouldn't be possible at all. So, I won't be taking my toys and going home. I enjoy sharing my work with my friends at WinCustomize too much. I feel a sense of loyalty to this place that is seldom found in online communities. But the point is, I could. The selfish "everything should be free" attitude some people have might push a less patient skinner to just quit entirely.

Comparing computer software to a car is just flat out idiotic.

Idiotic is to assume that just because you purchase something, everything that comes with that or is used by it MUST be free.
Whether is a car, a game platform, a PC, a Barbie doll, etc. all the extras has to be purchased.
The fact that all authors here have share their hard work with everyone for free does not mean they cant have the option to get something in return by putting a couple of premium skins for sale.
Maybe along the way we have all gotten use to the idea that skins are here for the grab and forgot about the process of their creation, that whether fun or not, is very time consuming.

Its not as if WB skinning is anymore of a task, I feel quite the opposite as there's no scripting or real thinking involved at all.

Then it is safe to assume that you can create a couple of dozen skins on a weekly base.

MindlessPuppet:

When I buy Photoshop I have to pay if I want to buy additional plugins.

When I buy 3D Studio, I have to pay for the 3D models I want to use. There are entire websites dedicated to selling 3D models for 3D Studio, Maya, etc.

When I buy a game there are expansion packs, level packs, etc. that cost mmoney.

When I buy a desktop publishing package I am expected to purchase additional templates, filters, and plugins.

When I get an MP3 player I am expected to pay for the music for it.

And in most of these scenarios, there are FREE extra content made by people too (free music, free 3D models, etc.). 

People paying for skins would actually be closer to the norm in the software market. 

Woo, what's the point of having a poll if one side is automatically wrong.

Several people seem to have a problem with this statement of mine "Its not as if WB skinning is anymore of a task, I feel quite the opposite as there's no scripting or real thinking involved at all."

MindlessPuppet....try not to live up to your name quite so much. I've never heard such utter tripe in all my years of skinning.

- Jafo

MindlessPuppet, as someone who stated on the GUI Olympics boards that you just couldn't manage to finish your own WB entry in time, I am suprised that you now find it so simplistic and, well, mindless.

- MikeB314

I think a lot of you misconstrued what I said here, or perhapes I didn't say it well enough. I have skinned for WindowBlinds, Sonique, WinAmp, MediaPlayer, and there's probably quite a few I have forgotten. What I have found is that WindowBlinds is by far the easiest to create a skin for. Yes, it is time consuming, but it isn't difficult. This could largely be due to skin studio and the fact a person can simply plug imaes in where they fit. With WinAmp, Sonique, and WinMedia you must completely write a script for your skins, and things that seem simple enough can take hours upon hours of fine tuning a single function. Furthermore it tends to be more difficult to design a freeform skin than it is to skin a box with buttons.

As far as me not finishing my own WB skin for GUIO, again it is time comsuming, and I was pressed for time between a crapy job, college, and texturing for a game project.

Dont worry Mindless, there may be people who release 'half-assed' skins to just up their level, but as Promotions Are Not Automatic, I dont think they will get very far.

- EventHorizon


Admittedly I didn't know that the level system wasn't automated, in which case I stand both corrected and relieved.

Mmm... Its not like every single skinner out there will immidately be promoted to Master and only release premium work...

- EventHorizon

That's yet to be seen, and you're probably right, but who can say for two years down the line. It's all a matter of how WC handles premium skins I guess, seems like it will have to be a very fine balancing act.

Skinning IS free...

- IPlural

Simply put, I said 'skins' should be free, not skinning. Though nice word play.

Anyone who feels it should all be free needs to remember that once a hobby starts to FEEL like work there is better than a 99% chance that it very well is.

- IPlural

If it is work, than it's not quite a hobby anymore. And if you feel something that use to be fun is now a chore, you should probably give it up, tis why we have so many bitter old men.

When I buy Photoshop I have to pay if I want to buy additional plugins. When I buy 3D Studio, I have to pay for the 3D models I want to use. There are entire websites dedicated to selling 3D models for 3D Studio, Maya, etc. When I buy a game there are expansion packs, level packs, etc. that cost mmoney.

- Frogboy

I use The GiMP for most of my work, but back when I used/use Photoshop I never payed for plug-ins there are plenty of free alternatives.

As towards buying models, I can relate to this all-to-well, assuming you buy them to texture there are plenty of modellers out there who would be more than happy to give you models for free. As you need their model to texture for a texturing portfolio, and textures make their models look a whole hell of a lot more impressive textured than bare for their portfolios. Also theres always the option of working on model beit texturing or animating for games and whatnot.

As towards buying additions for games, I refuse to, quite simply because Quake wasn't so long ago, and the idea of selling levels and models was obsurd. THOUGH! in argument against myself multilayer was always the biggest thing for me, and if we had to buy certain levels it would dramaticaly cut down on the people available to play a game with you, buying a skin no one else uses doesn't really ruin the experience...

When I get an MP3 player I am expected to pay for the music for it.

- Frogboy

I enjoyed this statment. 'expected' to pay for mp3s...



Anyhow this is all based on opinions, personally i wish we had a few *nix users in here... but well, being WINcustomize and all that's quite unlikely. What this comes down to is that there is no right or wrong, but what is and what isn't. There is a demand for skins, and the is a desire to make money, so if I think skins should be free it doesn't matter, they won't be. It seems that the free skin will become a thing of the past in a few years. As more premium skins come in to existence, so will piracy of those skins. And as this piracy becomes more widespread, skins authors will feel the need to charge more and make less free content.

As more premium skins come in to existence, so will piracy of those skins. And as this piracy becomes more widespread, skins authors will feel the need to charge more and make less free content.

This is exactly the mentality and actions that create this widespread problem.
Piracy exists only because there are people that refuse to compensate the work of others, they just want everything free. And it is this same mentality that forces people to stop sharing things.
Mike said it better 'It's ok if you don't buy any of my skins, but at least recognize that my time and effort are worth something. If you're unwilling to even support the concept that it's worth something, then I'm unwilling to give it to you.'

I find very funny when people think 'Let them spend days and weeks creating a skin/suite, I'll be dammed if I'm going to spend 1 cent to support their work' I always think how funny it will be if their bosses one would come and say "Hey, I’m not going to pay you dam dime for your time and work because I personally think you should do this for free'

About Premiumskins, to be, or not to be, I think there must be premiumskins, you can´t eat gratitude ,but I suggest something else:
Why don´t create an account for each skinner, pay the skinners 10 cent for each downloaded skin,and everybody will be happy.
Even Stardock will be happy, there will be more skinners,more downloads, higher quality in general, and they could sell more software, and people could pay with the money they earn on their skins.
Of course every softwaredeveloper should get paid for their work, and Stardock also,like ObjectDock+, don´t you think so Frogboy

I've never heard such utter tripe in all my years of skinning.

Yes you have... from me.

(Just Kidding)
[Message Edited]

LOS already offers the ability to upload premium content, problem is, anyone can upload anything and I can see where that would bring out the attitude of people uploading dooky . I think WC is taking the right approach to this and I don't think it is taking anything away from what WC already offers the skinning community. All WC would be doing is providing another service to skinners without them having to invest the time and money into maintaining their own website to offer premium content. Apparently WC appreciates the efforts of skinners to absorb this cost.

As for the comment about the ease of creating WB skins....I would say this "easy to do....hard to master"

Skinning WinAMP  [2x] is far easier than Windowblinds....though perhaps that's cos I'm old-school....using neither Skin Studio nor Builderblinds.....just the same tools as used in WA....notepad and PSP.

Either way, skinning Windowblinds is a lot harder than MindlessPuppet surmises....there may be 3000 plus WB skins here....but look closely for how many of them are actually fully complete AND original [not 'derived' from another].   That'll be living proof of their real 'complexity'.

I think the definitive 'word' on paying-for-skins is....you may wish they [skins] always remain free.......but they won't.

You can become a skinner and release your own skins freely ad infinitum.

Others will not.

A free market economy will determine the future viability of both....

MindlessPuppet: I don't think one side is "wrong.  And btw, I agree with you on one thing, I think some people here need to cool their "opinions". I don't like seeing caustic responses (like some of the ones directed at you).  What's the point of having a conversation if one is going to feel like they're going to get jumped on for having the "incorrect" opinion?

I think people have every right to think that skins should always be free.  My point was merely that the existence of premium skins would be consistent with the rest of the industry.